The Youth Group Podcast

Tom (00:12.579)
Hey there, podcast listeners and welcome to the Youth Group Podcast where a couple of youth leaders try to figure out how to do youth group better. My name is Tom. I'm an author, speaker and youth leader and I'm here in Melbourne and today joining me all the way from sunny Adelaide. I don't know if it's sunny. I didn't check, but let's assume that is. We have Tim Blagg, old friend of the podcast, one of its five best friends and

You are also a youth leader. pasta. Anyway, you're a guy and we like you and here you are. How are you?

Tim Blagg (00:49.154)
Here I am. Yeah, I'm good. Thanks, Tom. Yeah, yeah. It's, is sunny in Adelaide. It's unreasonably sunny for an April day. So, you know, it's, it's good. yeah, yeah. And it's delighted to be here as one of the top five friends of the podcast. Do we have a ranking board here? Like is, does it kind of go up and down? Like has Chris dropped a few places since he, you know, step back or. Yeah. Yeah.

Tom (00:53.71)
great. Excellent.

Tom (01:02.179)
Yeah.

Tom (01:09.961)
Definitely dropped a few places. You know how like, I mean, sometimes you grow in fondness towards people and sometimes you don't, but you know, the more time you spend with some people you think, oh, I shouldn't spend as much time with them. Other times, you know, I don't actually, I probably, won't keep going. Otherwise I might say something mean about someone. But let's just say that we love all our hosts equally and we love the hosts who is on the show at the time the most at that moment.

Tim Blagg (01:27.981)
Yeah.

Tim Blagg (01:39.182)
Yep, sounds perfect.

Tom (01:39.737)
Chris. The other thing is that Chris got on the chat last week and suggested that after Lauren and Alex's episode that I was redundant and unnecessary to the podcast. So that's why we're doing this episode to prove my worth again.

Tim Blagg (01:57.548)
Exactly. Is there like a soundboard effect we could do right now, which is like an awww.

Tom (02:02.187)
let me see. there's. Yep, not it. No, I don't have that many options, so. None of them is going to go on for too long. Got to stop that. And you were just on holidays, Tim. How was how was that?

Tim Blagg (02:08.334)
proving your worth.

Tim Blagg (02:18.978)
It's going on for quite a while, yeah.

Tim Blagg (02:26.53)
Yeah, good, good. know, getting away had my youth leadership team running youth while I wasn't here, which, you know, not the best time to take holidays, but they did a great job. So, yeah, thankful for that. My family joined a few other families from across Victorian South Australian lines and hung out in Mount Gambier in South Australia. Saw a lake that was kind of blue and yeah, looked at caves. It was fun. Yeah.

Tom (02:48.775)
the blue lake. Is the blue mountain Gambia lake, is that the one that's like in a pit? That's the one?

Tim Blagg (02:55.054)
Yeah, yeah, it's the crater, the crater from a former volcano. So yeah, kind of cool to see.

Tom (02:59.679)
yeah. I couldn't remember if it was a foam volcano or just an old mine, like a quarry.

Tim Blagg (03:05.079)
They do have sink holes and they do have caves around. like this, yeah, basically just holes in the ground. It's exciting to see different holes in the ground in South Australia.

Tom (03:12.761)
That's what you got to show. Show the world.

Tim Blagg (03:17.483)
Exactly.

Tom (03:19.993)
Great. And you'll get your back at Youth Group in a few weeks. But you've got a bit of time off.

Tim Blagg (03:26.828)
Yeah, yeah, so school holidays, they, yeah, so, yeah, we'll be back in the first week of May. That'll be good fun. Yeah, have a good you guys.

Tom (03:33.433)
Yeah, great. Uh, yeah, we, like we've been on break for a bit. That's why I wasn't on the podcast last week. I had nothing to talk about. We didn't do youth group. so everyone's like, well, why are you here this week, Tom, if you're still on holidays, but yeah, we're off for a while. Um, until the beginning of May we're off. So we had a nice end, which I already talked about and I just kind of hung around thinking of trying to figure out all the things that I've missed during the term.

Cause it was a crazy term. And now here we are. I'm getting ready to go up to Belgrave Heights Easter convention to do the speaking for the youth there, not for the adults. So if you're an adult coming along, I'll disappoint you or please you, whatever you feel about my speaking. And then I'll be going to self-survivor. And then we get back just before youth begins. So it'll just be like roll straight out of the holiday ministry straight into the, the normal, know, week in week out school.

term ministry. So that'll be fun. I'm hoping that somewhere in there, feels relaxing to me. Yeah. So this week on the podcast, thought we would, because it's holidays, we would do a session where we give you some media that might be helpful for you. So most importantly, books, because everyone loves books, or if you don't love books, you will love books by the end of this. So

Tim has never got to share with us his best books in youth ministry books for youth and books for youth leaders. I'm not sure where you're skewing towards in your list. And I will share some things that I didn't share last time. If you want to hear the last episode where we did this, it was the last episode in the year 2023. And we can link to that in the show notes, but that was Chris and I, and mostly it was probably just

me and Chris talking about how great our own books are and then a little bit at the end about other people's stuff. So now Tim gets to share about how great my books are and a little bit about the end about other people's stuff. So Tim, why don't you kick us off? Apart from my books, obviously, what is the first book you want to share with us? Assuming it's a book, because we've got other, sorry, we are thinking other media as well available to whatever media you want to share, TikTok videos.

Tim Blagg (05:41.686)
Yeah.

Tim Blagg (05:50.007)
Yeah.

Tom (05:56.887)
recipe, websites, whatever you want. Tell us.

Tim Blagg (06:01.176)
Yep, yep. No recipe websites to share right now. A stack of books that, you talked about John Dixon's on the last episode that you guys talked about books, some of his ones pitched at youth, like, you know, sneaking suspicion or hanging in there. I found that the kind of next iteration of books kind of similar to that were Scott Petty's Little Black Books series that Mathias Media did, and tends to keep a stack of those on hand with our youth.

Tom (06:24.651)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

Tim Blagg (06:30.424)
camps and all that. So yeah, the one I brought from my shelf all the way in the other room is suffering an evil one, which, you know, I found it really handy. It's very, very little, which some of my teenagers don't like reading very much. having a little book they can read, but also give to a non-Christian friend has been really helpful for quite a few years. No, yeah, they are like four chapters long each or so. And yeah, yeah.

Tom (06:49.943)
Yeah, they don't feel that intimidating, those books. They're very small.

Yeah. One of the kids in my youth group found the book, the Scott Petty book, which it just says sex on the front. And they turned to me because I was standing next them at the library table and they're like, why do you have this book? was like, because the Bible has things to say about sex. I'm like, but we're teenagers. I think they were in year six or year seven.

Tim Blagg (07:18.785)
You

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that agent stage is kind of more of a joke to them that they'll put it in each other's hands and go, why'd you want to buy this one? kind of thing. Yeah. But I've had those to be really helpful. And then yes, you've kind of mentioned Chris's books as well as kind of a, yeah, Chris, think by his own words on it said that he wanted to do another iteration of what John Dixon's books were, yeah, some 30 years ago, in the all the way back in the land of the 90s.

Tom (07:44.226)
Yep.

Tom (07:49.633)
Yeah. Yeah. So, and Chris's book, the most recent one, which is the one which is, you've got it. You've actually bought your better. You've moved up in the podcast rankings now, cause I don't even own it yet. cause I just got to read a review copy and bought the real thing yet. Yeah. It's worth it. what is, what's the tagline? The rest of it.

Tim Blagg (08:01.475)
Woo.

Tim Blagg (08:11.864)
Following Jesus when life feels complicated.

Tom (08:15.011)
Yeah and it's good. I wasn't just saying nice things when I was interviewing Chris about it on that episode. It actually is a really good book and really easy read and encouraging. Have you got the chance to read it?

Tim Blagg (08:26.584)
Yeah, I've flipped through. so I haven't sat down and read it cover to cover, but what I've done is, you know, Chris kind of talked about the individual chapters, focusing on different points. And I looked at one and kind of scanned it to give to one of my leaders to think through ahead of one of their talks, earlier on this term. So yeah, just in terms of here's an idea of something that you could apply. So yeah, yeah. No, I've found it very readable. Feel very comfortable handing it off to a youth member or maybe even doing a book club on it with some of our youth.

Tom (08:43.211)
Mm-hmm, that's good.

Tim Blagg (08:56.095)
later in the year. Yeah.

Tom (08:56.353)
Yeah, give them prizes if they can find the reference. And what else? What else you got for us Tim?

Tim Blagg (09:01.363)
yeah, yeah, that's true. The alleged reference.

Tim Blagg (09:09.186)
Yep. ones that are a few years old now, David Murray, kind of like 2010s. there's a two, two for one kind of deal in that sense. why am I feeling like this and a parent guide, why is my teenager feeling like this? he essentially deals with kind of low level anxiety, depression, helping us to see what's going on from a biblical point of view, like how spiritually we can process our own depression, anxiety, mental health.

Tom (09:18.379)
yeah.

Tim Blagg (09:38.818)
habits. Each chapter in the youth and the parents one is like the same on the same topic with the same scenarios, but the parents one has slightly different information incorporated into it. And it's meant to be kind of a discussion guide, a prompt. Yeah, so I've, I found this helpful. We did a series on mental health a few years back at youth. And this was the book I recommended to all our families on it. It's not the be all and end all it doesn't dive deep into like eating disorders or

Um, yeah, into psychosis or borderline or, um, know, personality disorders, but it does deal with kind of the general, I don't know, almost that, that sense of dread that heart rising levels of anxiety that teenagers seem to have, um, yeah, stress in general.

Tom (10:23.225)
And of the two books, which one would you recommend a youth leader reads, do you reckon?

Tim Blagg (10:31.766)
In one sense, I'd say you could pick either or like the, the youth one was very helpful in terms of just getting inside the head of our youth and having questions to ask them. If you wanted to do a study with your youth, you could use the parents one. Like it's, it's meant to be parents slash carers. Yeah, it's a guide to helping teens through anxiety and depression, which, yeah, arguably, if you were putting yourself in that position, you could, you could go either or I guess it kind of depends on what you're feeling, but

Both are very similar. It's not like one's got this, know, here's how you become a psychologist overnight and treat your youthful members. It's more of a, how do you walk alongside? How do you have helpful conversations? How do you even just ask, hey, how are you going really? That sort of stuff.

Tom (11:16.557)
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's good. All right, cool. All right. Do you want another one or should I throw one in?

Tim Blagg (11:19.032)
So can recommend.

Tim Blagg (11:26.592)
you throw them in, by all means. I can keep going for a little time.

Tom (11:28.825)
Okay. So the one that I think that came out since we released the episode was the three big questions from the Fuller Youth Institute crew, which is like looking at what are the big things that teenagers these days are asking questions about.

Tim Blagg (11:45.72)
Mmm, mmm.

Tom (11:56.817)
And actually the thing that I found it most helpful for me, wasn't so much like the content as much as giving me prompts in how to talk to teenagers and ask them meaningful questions about the things that are important to them. it is, is valuable. As I say this, I realize I can't actually remember what the three big things are. I think there was identity and no.

Are you going to Google it for me now? Because I can see your hands moving to the keyboard. This is why we should prepare, except I was making a slow cook for our dinner before we started recording when I was like, this is when I should be looking up the books. Anyway, the important thing I thought for me was that as I read it, it gave me really good ideas to think about as I chat to teenagers. What should I be talking to them about?

Have you got them there Tim for me?

Tim Blagg (12:59.534)
No, I haven't. I've just drawn up the book that came out after that, which is Faith Beyond Youth Group, but that's not the one you're talking about.

Tom (13:07.993)
Faith Beyond, yeah, I have seen that one, not read it because, look, this is the Youth Group podcast. And if we read a book about how, you know, I don't know, maybe perhaps youth groups are not the be-all and end-all of youth ministry, then what would we be doing with our life? So, you got it. Great.

Tim Blagg (13:16.334)
Yeah.

Tim Blagg (13:25.09)
So here we go, got it, gotcha. Who am I? Where do I fit? What difference can I make?

Tom (13:32.833)
Yeah, look, that's what I said.

Tim Blagg (13:34.626)
Yeah, yeah, failed it again.

Tom (13:38.787)
This is why we need that person who is on the podcast that we no longer mention who looks up stuff and sends it to the host so that you've got the Google while you're speaking. Anyway, that one three big questions. should definitely go back to you, Tim, much more prepared. What have you got for us?

Tim Blagg (13:58.537)
one, I don't know if you guys mentioned it. this changes everything by Jekyll Crow, came out in the late 2010s. Have you gone through this or given it to you before?

Tom (14:04.313)
Mmm.

Tom (14:09.237)
Yeah, look, don't, I probably got a different opinion about it to you. you tell me what you think and I can say a thing.

Tim Blagg (14:17.326)
Okay, yeah, well, my opinion on it is that it's, it's not coming across refined or like deeply thought through on some areas, but it's written by a teenager. And that was the first big plug for it. And the second one was that she's trying hard at least to kind of tackle all areas of life as best as she can with kind of how does the gospel impact this? Like, yeah, it's kind of as advertised in that sense, like, yeah, but interested to hear your take on it.

Tom (14:45.625)
Yeah, so I mean, I saw a lot of people talking about it and so I thought I should read it written by a teenager. And yeah, I think I found that it was like sometimes, I don't know if you found this with teenagers, they're fairly black and white and sometimes not as not as gracious sometimes as you might hope.

they would be if they saw the world in a more nuanced way, which is like fine in terms of developmentally, that's where they're at. But I saw that kind of coming through in the book so that it didn't like it felt like as it as she talked about the issues that teens teens might be facing as a lot of, well, you should just do better at this. And like she definitely it wasn't like she ignored grace, but there was a lot of yeah, tears dive you say you should.

You should be a bit better at this. on, guys. That was my so that's that's why I thought I actually don't think I want to recommend this to my youth. But I don't I don't mind if other people do. I'm not going to not going to go and burn any books.

Tim Blagg (15:48.076)
Yeah, yeah.

Tim Blagg (16:01.186)
Yep. I think the kind of youth I would give this one to or recommend to read it would be someone who I think is just actually really excited about faith things and wants to kind of dive in. don't know, just a young Christian excited about faith things, has a good grasp of grace. But yeah, on the other hand, if they were a little bit wavery or very uncertain, might be a little bit hard hitting in places where there could be better pastoral application.

Tom (16:28.195)
Yeah, yeah.

Tim Blagg (16:30.68)
Two more, this one I have not read, but I'm going to read it at some point this year because I'm doing a series on relationships at the end of the year. More to the story. You have, okay, well wanna hear your take on it.

Tom (16:41.433)
Oh, yes, I have read that one. I can talk about that one. Yeah, so you don't know what you're talking about because you haven't read it. I have. Although having said that, I have read some and I didn't know what I talking about anyway. but this is actually really kind of a helpful book to be talking about sexuality and dating within like the context of what

what's going on for teenagers at the moment. yeah, the first thing she does as she writes the book is she gives us like the big gospel picture of she just tells the story of the gospels so that as you then look at questions of sexuality and gender and dating, it all comes from this gospel kind of focus, which I found really useful. And actually, it's interesting that you

brought that up because when I was doing my video on relationships early in the term, looked first, I was like, well, I should look at this changes everything because you know, that's like a whole thing about Jesus changed everything. I looked at her one and I was like, oh yeah, I remember why I didn't keep reading this book. And then I went to more to the story and I was like, yeah, this has been helpful. yeah, more to the story is a good book. And actually, I think it's even, you know,

won some awards recently. That's how I found out about it. I think I was listening to the Rooted podcast, which has a terrible name for Australians, but is quite helpful in thinking about youth ministry. And they gave it like the best, the winner of the best book for youth in 2024. So that was like, oh, I should definitely listen to that one. And it was good. I say listen. Yeah. I only really listen to books these days, just to be clear. I don't read a thing at all.

Tim Blagg (18:15.278)
Hmm.

Tom (18:38.657)
What's the other one you haven't read, Tim? I might have read it.

Tim Blagg (18:41.454)
Uh, well, I've half read this one. I'm working through it with a group of youth slowly this year. Um, knowing God's truth by John Nielsen. Um, it's a systematic theology book for youth. It's a kind of, yeah, pitched at teenagers, but yeah, it's pretty easy to scale up or down. Um, yeah, it's a, it's kind of, yeah, make it more wide. Like, um, yeah, I found reading through it and going through it. That's, it's not a deep.

Tom (18:49.334)
don't know it.

Tom (19:01.154)
Yeah, great.

Tim Blagg (19:10.21)
Systemic Theology, it's very much an introduction. yeah, but super easy, super readable. 12 big topics and he crams a lot into there. Yeah, it's been, yeah. If you were to compare it to like, Mike Bird or Wayne Grudem or Horton or whoever else, Systemic Theology, insert your favorite here. Yeah, it's not gonna break down things into exactly the same categories, but he touches on.

12 pretty big doctrines and engages with them through it. And he's also got a tie in workbook, but also there's like a DVD or I'm sure you can find it online videos where he's actually just delivering the same content that's in the book. So for those who prefer to watch rather than read, he does do that.

Tom (19:48.654)
Mm-hmm.

Tom (19:52.995)
Yeah, great.

Tom (19:59.161)
Great. That sounds good. I will definitely check that one out. That's a book I've been thinking that I was like, wouldn't mind writing that book and now someone's already done it so I don't have to do it. So that's good. I've got too many on my list as it is. I think, that's like, that probably brings us, I don't think I have any really that many more to recommend for you to read at the moment because I haven't actually.

got through that many. mean, a lot of my youth have been asking about demons lately. So I have just started reading the book Demons by Michael Heiser. And I really liked The Unseen Realm by same guy, Michael Heiser. So if you want to look into demons and angels and stuff, which and other gods, which your teenagers might ask about, then that's a book worth looking at. But

I'm really in the interaction of demons. can't recommend it yet, but it's probably a little bit too in depth anyway for teenagers, but good for youth leaders probably if they know that they're going to get asked about all those things, which you probably will. Yeah. So thinking about what about stuff for youth leaders? What have you got for us, Tim?

Tim Blagg (21:21.39)
Yep. Well, I mean, you've already talked about Fuller Institute. I don't think you guys talked much about their other works last time around, or maybe like one or two of them. But yeah, I don't know, like on my end, at least one that I keep referring to with my leaders as I read their newer stuff is still there. know, Sticky Faith. Going all the way back, the kind of Youth Worker edition is the one I've got here. yeah, you know, it's...

Tom (21:38.777)
Sticky faith. Yep.

Tim Blagg (21:45.614)
There's a few things that I really don't go, that's, that's kind of a different context to us here in Australia, but still a lot of stuff that's helpful. And, yeah, the, big prompts, like, you know, in youth ministry, kids who are going to last long-term and in church are going to be people who have relationships with adults. you know, what, five meaningful adult relationships per child, that kind of thing. yeah. So I found that really helpful and keep going back to it. as I dabble into their newer stuff.

Tom (22:15.277)
Yeah, yeah, I found it pretty helpful reading it, but I read it later in my journey with Fuller Youth Institute. the first one I think I read from them was Growing Young, which I'm wondering if you're about to produce the book out of your stack there. But that, yeah, that one was that, like they draw on a lot of the stuff that's also in Sticky Faith.

Tim Blagg (22:27.214)
Hmm.

Tim Blagg (22:32.014)
I left it on my desk.

Tom (22:43.927)
because you know they keep doing research into what helps young people stick with Jesus and stay in the church and stuff and so you're gonna they keep finding the same things which is good. But yeah Growing Young for me was a really really helpful book to start about well what does it mean to have a church youth ministry that is where you get the whole church engaged in helping young people keep following Jesus rather than just have a

a youth group based ministry or a siloed kind of youth ministry where teenagers are hanging themselves and being looked after by the youth pastor and the youth leaders and then the rest of the church gets on with what they're doing. Yeah, so I found that really helpful. And yeah, and the other stuff I've read from them similarly kind of backs up and looks at the similar things just from different angles, which

continues to be helpful. I keep doing good stuff.

Tim Blagg (23:46.776)
Hmm, absolutely. I haven't got the book here, you can get the full report online, but a different group that was kind of, you know, bigger from Australia, New Zealand, converge, with their Your Story studies a couple of years ago. Have you been across that?

Tom (23:59.203)
Mm-hmm.

Tom (24:03.545)
Oh yeah. I have been across it. I assume. Well, so it comes out of the work of what Graham Stanton and Rowan Lewis who are a Melbourne based youth ministry people. In fact, I really every now and then I think I should get Graham on the podcast, but I don't get around to it. Also, actually, because I told him I was going to start this podcast.

Tim Blagg (24:17.058)
Yeah, yeah.

Tom (24:32.313)
a little while ago and he made a joke about that. There's a video that was made during the pandemic saying, what are we going to do with our time? It's like, we should start more podcasts. And so I was like, man. But anyway, that's not the point. The point is that, yeah, the work that they've been doing in your story where they've done like spoken to.

hundreds of different teenagers, particularly who have engaged with faith and faith communities and discussed what has been helpful for them in growing their faith, what has been unhelpful. And it was like a really in-depth survey that took quite a long time for the youth to do. just spending a lot of time listening has brought out some really helpful stuff. And some of the stuff that kind of I got out of it was...

like the importance of having adults who listen and listen unjudgmentally and don't try and fix things or fix teenagers or solve problems for them or make them be good Christian people, but just happy to listen. then, yeah, that's it. mean, I haven't, I don't think I've read the

the report. So I actually went and listened to Graham talk about it, or Graham and Rowan talk about it. And that was, that was one of the big takeaways for me. But yeah, do you know where you can get the report?

Tim Blagg (26:03.438)
Uh, so I think Converge Oceania, um, is the, kind of website and yeah, I'm sure we can check it in the show notes, uh, by we, I mean you, but, um, yeah, the, the, the, is a link to get the key findings, um, report, which is like a, you know, 40 page report or so, or you can get the full report, which is about 160 pages. Um, I've, yeah, I took one of my youth leaders, Bible college and mustard, um, BCM leader.

Tom (26:11.606)
Yeah.

I'll just get AI to do it.

Tom (26:25.507)
Yeah.

Tom (26:33.025)
Yeah

Tim Blagg (26:33.655)
to the kind of key report, the key findings report night last year when Rowan came over to Adelaide to present it. like, yeah, we ended up presenting some of that material to our youth leaders as well, just to go, actually, this was really helpful on a few different fronts. yeah, one of our said BCM leader has also implemented it in her small group, like kind of asking them some of their questions about how they do their own story. So yeah.

Tom (27:02.509)
Yeah, that's good.

Tim Blagg (27:03.266)
We found it really practical to kind of implement some of that, which I kind of relate to Fuller Institute as a thinking about how we do ministry live with research.

Tom (27:06.125)
Yeah.

Tom (27:14.553)
Yeah. And it's good because it's like, it's a local one and yeah, we get to hear about what's happening for teenagers and recent teenagers. not, this wasn't done in like 2015, which turns out was 10 years ago. It was, I think it was like 2021 and 2022. They were doing the surveys. So, yeah, much more recent stuff and helpful. And you'll learn even more than just the one.

thing that I said then, so you should check, definitely check that out. Link in the show notes. What's next, Tim?

Tim Blagg (27:51.662)
So I similar things coming out of the US. So other kind of big, you know, think orange group coming out of Reggie joiners kind of work. They put out the art of small group, the art of group talk. And they've got a team guys and a team girls one, which they're basically the same, they just have slight tweaks in them. But it's basically a how to guide on small group leading and like very, very practical. So they

Tom (27:59.298)
Mm-hmm.

Tom (28:09.07)
Mm-hmm.

Tim Blagg (28:19.022)
In both of them, have these like little toolkits that they recommend every small group leader has on hand for leading small groups, which is, you know, again, it's more of a dipping into a tips and tricks book rather than a reading it and going, oh my gosh, I've been doing growth, you know, small group leadership all wrong all along. It's more of a, oh, this is how I can improve as a leader. Here's, here's a couple of ideas that were helpful.

Tom (28:40.844)
Better to have that than an existential crisis about your small group leading. Unless of course you have been doing it all wrong. It turns out I shouldn't have been bringing beard to small group. That's wrong.

Tim Blagg (28:53.602)
I don't know that that goes against that.

Tom (28:56.057)
I did actually once, this is, I did once have a small group where we talking about alcohol at small group. And I thought it'd be really funny to bring non-alcoholic beer to small group. And everyone else was like, Tom, why did you do that? I'm like, cause it was non-alcoholic beer. was like, was, was, and it was also before non-alcoholic beer was a big thing. It was like, I could find one non-alcoholic beer brand in Woolies and I bought that. And then, and all the youth were like, this is disgusting. I don't want to even want to drink this. I was like, great.

And everyone was pleased I didn't go through with my idea of also making mocktails at small group as well. So there's a tip of something not to do. No, not going to call it beer, no mocktails, even if they don't have alcohol in them, people will frown on it. So, yeah.

Tim Blagg (29:32.44)
You

Tim Blagg (29:43.074)
Yeah, okay, helpful to know for next time we do an alcohol night at youth.

Tom (29:47.137)
Yeah, I assume that's not in the book. It could be.

Tim Blagg (29:49.998)
I'll have to double check. It's been about a year since I last read through it cover to cover.

Tom (29:55.758)
May I'll put it in my next book. Should I bring beard a small group that will it'll just be a short one, but I think it'll sell well.

Tim Blagg (30:03.47)
You

Tom (30:06.047)
All right, what else you got for us?

Tim Blagg (30:08.678)
Well, last book that I brought along for my own pile was Michael McGarry's A Biblical Theology of Youth Ministry. Love it. Yeah, I've read through it a couple of times, I've given it away to a few different people who've started in youth in the last few years. Yeah, just so, so keen on it and love the way he looks at the Bible's take on actually kids, youth being ministered to intentionally and specifically. He does a great job with that and then gets into more of the pragmatics and

Tom (30:16.067)
Great book.

Tim Blagg (30:38.414)
How do we do ministry then?

Tom (30:40.727)
Yeah, yeah, he, yeah, I found it really helpful because there's most youth ministry books will assume that youth ministry is a thing and that you should just do it. And they don't spend a lot of time dealing with youth ministry, theologically. And he's, yeah, he spends a lot of time walking through, where do you find youth ministry within the Bible? And then he spends a bit of time also on, on the expression of youth ministry throughout church history. So

The other thing that often happens in youth ministry books is like, know, adolescence wasn't really noted as an important thing until like the like 1950s after the baby burners came around and you know, was lots of disposable income. People had high school and then they're like, and so that's when we start to write youth ministry. And he's like, well, no, we'll be knowing youth ministry for as long as they've been teenagers. And there's always been teenagers. So

Yeah, he gives us some really kind of good insights into what has been happening and then helps you then think about, what are you doing now? And what are the important things to be doing within your youth ministry? And he is really solidly biblically based. Well, we're on Mike McGarry, who actually is going to be a guest on the show next week, our very first international guest, which is very, very exciting, except that I have to do it. My options were very late at night or

Tim Blagg (31:58.701)
Awesome.

Tom (32:05.241)
Like at a reasonable time in the morning, which he suggested, he was like, oh, talking to Australians is normally like 10 in the morning works pretty well. And I'm like, that's great. But I had staff meeting it then. So I've opted for late at night. So that's going to happen to tomorrow, actually, according to when we're recording this. But anyway, the point is, another great book of his, which is a really good one to give to youth leaders if they're not up for reading a full biblical theology of youth ministry is

lead them to Jesus, which I found really disappointing when I first found this book, because, I have been writing a book for youth leaders on how to be a youth leader. And, cause I was like, most books are for youth pastors, very few for youth, actual youth leaders on just what do you do as a youth leader? And then I read this book when I was up to like the second last chapter of my book. And I was like, darn it. I think he's written the book that I should have written and he's done a better job of it. So the first half.

of the book, he gives you like a bunch of the theological kind of big things that are going to come up in youth ministry. If you're leading teenagers, like questions about, can you trust the Bible, the Trinity, the importance of church, things like that. how do you helping youth leaders understand like just the big, big points of theology that they'll be talking about with teenagers. And then he goes into

What are the practical things you do within youth ministry? Any grounds that theologically again, which is important, I guess, for the guy who is right. A biblical theology of youth ministry and he runs a ministry called Youth Pastor Theologians. He hoped that he was doing it, but he does a really great job of it. And yeah, it's a book that you could give to pretty much any youth leader, I reckon, and it'd be worth their time. So.

Yeah, there you go. There's another one to recommend and you can listen to him next week. And if you've got any questions, bother sending them in because I already recorded the interview. there you go. Yeah, I'm just seeing if I've got any others which I would recommend. But I don't think I do. I think you've covered most of them. there are a few good books that I've, you know, if you're in the...

Tim Blagg (34:14.062)
you

Tom (34:31.339)
If you want to spend a lot of time in the nitty gritty and the academic side of youth ministry, email me and I'll send them to you. But the other ones I was reading for my masters and I haven't looked at them since I did my masters. So that's what kind of books they are. So, yeah. But the other thing I want to talk about was not just books, any other kind of media that we might want to.

might be helpful for us to consume. think we talked a bit about podcasts, which are helpful. So I don't know if you have any others that you want to add after our last chat, Tim, for podcasts that are useful for those in the news ministry.

Tim Blagg (35:14.753)
you know, to talk about an old one, questions that nobody's asking is certainly one that I've referred to quite a few people.

Tom (35:23.553)
Yes, yes, that's from a guy's Tom French and Chris Morphew, where they talk about questions, the weird questions that teenagers have asked during youth group. And actually, we're working on some stuff with that still. It's not dead. So, yeah, we'll see what happens. Yep, that's a good podcast. Any others you can recommend?

Tim Blagg (35:52.402)
I think I mentioned all the other ones that I'm listening to off the top of my head last time around, but I don't know. about on your end? Anything you, you missed out on?

Tom (35:59.277)
Well, to get ahead of the next week's episode once again, Mike McGarry does have his own podcast called Youth Pastor Theologian. Or I think that's what, yeah, I think it's all the YPT podcast. And he just talks to a bunch of people about youth ministry and things to how to think about it theologically and the good things that they're doing. So, yeah, that's that's a pretty good one.

I haven't found that many good youth ministry podcasts, but if you have any, you should email them to us. Hello at youth group podcast dot com. And we will do our best to give them really bad ratings and reviews so that we are the only only good youth podcast on the internet. That's not true. Just for those. If you've been listening this long, should probably know. I don't always say things that I believe. All right. And

I've got some things to watch, which I'll tell you about. And then if you have anything that you want to check in. The first one is a film which I think anyone who's working with middle school teenagers should watch called Eighth Grade, which is a film about a girl who is in eighth grade. And it's just like kind of like really like

realistic kind of look at the life of an awkward eighth grader. And it's like really, like a really compassionate kind of look at her life, but also just some of the horrors of being a girl at that age, as you're kind of navigating the transition from being a child to being a teenager to becoming a woman or like, and as everyone else around you, like, how do you deal with the cool kids? And how do you deal with like,

you know, your parents and how do you deal with social media? Like just, just a really kind of great film that just also you watch and at times you just want to die inside as you, as you watch it and just feel really sorry for this girl. And I watch it and think about, this is what life is like for a lot of the young people who I've been working with. And it reminds me of things that I went through at that age, even though was never an eighth grade girl, but

Tom (38:27.737)
Still, I did had go through eighth grade. So there you go. That's one. Have you seen that one, Tim? There you go. Yeah, put on your list. The second one is actually a stand-up comedy special by James Acaster. I think that's how you say his name. Called Hekla's Welcome, which I just watched one night with no expectation that I was going to have anything to do with the youth ministry, but

Tim Blagg (38:33.858)
I have not, I have not, but I'll put them on this, yeah, yeah.

Tom (38:57.369)
He spends a lot of time talking about his childhood and his teenage years. And there's one kind of great piece in the set about being in church and discovering that Jesus died. And it's like, there's been a whole time talking about how great Jesus is. And then he found out that he died in this horrible way and he was mortified. But like kind of really, like really funny, but also helpful to think about, well, how do we talk to young people and particularly kids though?

There's more of a kids ministry one this one, but we'll get to the teenagers. How do you talk to you? How do you talk about Jesus to kids and they can totally misunderstand what's going on? So you've got to be really thoughtful about the way you do it. And then he has this really great kind of section at the end where he and a bunch of people on the train like engages some teenagers who are acting in very antisocial ways.

and the kind of fear that adults feel when they encounter teenagers. And yeah, and the way that he responds to the teenagers within that moment is like a kind of really instrumental or helpful thing to think about. How do you engage with teenagers, particularly when they're being their their most kind of difficult as they try and

try to kind of project their confidence that they may or may not be feeling and how we as adults respond to them. And, you know, we can both be fearful of each other, but he had a really kind of good take on how you, how you respond to that. So that's, that's another one. And one, I mean, obviously there's adolescence. Have you watched that one yet, Tim? Yep. You haven't? well, so far behind.

Tim Blagg (40:48.684)
I have not, no, but no, I'm so far behind on the visual media.

Tom (40:53.911)
I thought I'm probably don't even need to mention adolescents, the amount of people who talking about adolescents. mean, one, it's worth watching just because they film every episode in one take, which is just very impressive, but also very good as you think about how to like, what is this world that teenagers are engaging with? And particularly with the bro culture or the manosphere that young men are encountering online and

Tim Blagg (41:18.062)
Hmm.

Tom (41:24.147)
we who are in ministry might not be encountering it that much and might not really know what's going on. And I, you know, I know a bit about what's going on, but I don't know much. it's like, I watched the show and I was like, I don't know. I actually want to talk to some teenagers about how accurate it is, but from where I'm sitting, it feels pretty accurate, but I'd like to talk to them. But there's one like particular scene where like the use of teenage emojis gets broken down by

one kid for an adult. And it's like the cracking of the code for how teenagers talk to each other. And I heard someone else talking about that. was like, well, you know, it's interesting, but also like, isn't that what emojis are? Like they're just, they're a code for the way that we talk to each other. Like they're not, like, it's not a surprise that emojis are code because they're not actual words. And it's just the different way people use them. was like, you know, that's a good point. But in the film, it's like, wow.

the show. like, this is like, this has been huge. It's like a breakthrough. This is how teenagers talk to each other. But I'd like to, you know, I would like to talk to teenagers, some of our teenagers about it. But last time I had to ask teenagers about a show that was rated MA, I was like, have you seen this show? And they're like, no, it's MA. And I was like, oh, yeah, sorry. I'm really sorry about that. I shouldn't have asked you. And the last one, which I've only just started watching,

is on, you can find on Disney Plus, I could have told you where you can find all these things, but I won't, is Social Studies, which I've just begun watching, which is like a show with a documentarian, she's followed a bunch of American, I think LA based teenagers around for, I don't know how long, but for a while. And at the same time, she's filming them.

she got access to record whatever is going on on their phones. so you like we never see what's going on on the phones of teenagers. And like we generally we shouldn't. But like the algorithm that they get is very different from the algorithm that you get on the algorithm from one person to another is different. But like to understand how teenagers are being bombarded by

Tom (43:49.355)
social media and what's happening to them while they are kind of sitting in whatever thing that's happening in school or youth group and they're scrolling their phones and this all this stuff is coming up on their screen and they're texting each other and whatever's going on. You get to kind of see that in real time as it happens and hear the teenagers talk about how the phones are affecting them and what it's doing to their view of themselves and their view of each other and their

Tim Blagg (44:12.429)
Hmm.

Tom (44:16.485)
the way they relate to the world. really kind of, I think, important and helpful stuff. But I have, not that far in yet. So, you know, there might be some wild stuff in there that I might not recommend. So, don't, if it goes nuts later on in the series, then I apologize. So there you go. Any...

Tim Blagg (44:39.512)
Yeah, yeah, grain of salt.

Tom (44:44.065)
Anything else you want to recommend to Tim?

Tim Blagg (44:46.954)
I mean, on the teenager front, yeah, apologies if you talked about this before, can't remember. Inside Out 2.

Tom (44:55.161)
Oh yeah, no, I haven't watched it yet. So there you go. I'm behind the times now.

Tim Blagg (44:57.23)
Okay. Good. Here we go. Yeah. Give and take. Uh, yeah. I Pixar has always done a good job of kind of asking what are those big internal questions or issues that kids and teens and people kind of face inside out too is very much a like condensed diversion, looking at adolescents and like the, you know, puberty kind of kicking off and some of the hormonal changes and the different kind of qualities and quantities of emotions that, um, yeah, yeah. Riley, the

protagonist from Inside Out 1 goes through as she goes from being a kid to being a teenager. And yeah, it kind of, it just has so much food for thought and kind of conversation prompts to have. Yeah, I guess in an animated and fun and quirky style. Yeah. So again, you know, if you like, one of the recommendations I make to my leaders is if you've got a diary from when you were a teenager, like

Tom (45:37.709)
Mm.

Tim Blagg (45:51.918)
go back and read some of those entries because they are gold. They remind you of what you felt and thought back then. it feels like, you know, yeah, similar to what you said with eighth grade or adolescence. Like, yeah, it feels like watching this, you kind of get brought back to that space again as well. Like you get given a position of empathy towards a teenager and kind of some of the feeling out of control and yeah, almost this kind of dread, this anxiety, this yeah, all the things that kind of come up. Yeah, so I think there's

Tom (45:54.292)
great.

Tim Blagg (46:21.528)
There's value in that one.

Tom (46:23.929)
So that's a difficult to find that one. You might have to get a, like Inside Out 2, I don't know where you'd get that, but if you can track it down, you can watch it, I guess. Yeah.

Tim Blagg (46:33.976)
Yeah, yeah, pretty deep cut.

and then, yeah, I guess other ones like more, I guess, general Bible-y and less focused on teens. but, you know, I this helpful for some of my youth, has been having visual versions of the Bible, particularly for those who struggle with, kind of reading. So, a few years ago, there was the LUMO project videos that were just, essentially the text of the NIV from Matthew, Mark, Luke, John,

Tom (46:57.561)
Mm-hmm.

Tim Blagg (47:06.626)
being read and having like actors acting over the top of it. So just the visuals of the gospel with the NIV text, which I found really helpful. I've used it sometimes in place of using a Bible reading, like just to go, Hey, here's a different way of us hearing from the Bible. Yeah.

Tom (47:10.706)
great.

Tom (47:22.273)
I haven't even heard of that one. I should check it said the LUMO project. said cool.

Tim Blagg (47:26.606)
Lumo. Yep. the, other two visual ones, I'm going to, you know, put a caveat next to that. I haven't watched them yet. I want to, I want to watch them and check them out, but you know, um, I've got plenty of people at church talking about chosen. Um, uh, so I haven't watched it yet. Um, I will probably one day, um, next year we're to be doing one Samuel. So I'm really interested in watching, uh, Amazon's house of David, um, and seeing if that would be suitable. Uh, I take it it's going to have a pretty wild rating for a few episodes, but.

Tom (47:39.865)
Yep, Good.

Tom (47:50.903)
Mmm

Tim Blagg (47:56.974)
Um, yeah, be interested if there's any parts of that that are actually faithful to the text and helpful. Um, yeah.

Tom (48:03.961)
I think, as far as I know, it's made by people who are Christians. So I watched like a David film with Richard Gere in it from the 80s, which was not made by Christians, and you could tell. But yeah, I think this one, yeah, I haven't watched it either, but I've heard a bit about it and it will be interesting to see. Yeah.

I tried to watch The Chosen, then I saw that it was only on Amazon and I try and avoid watching Amazon because it gives me ads and I don't want to pay the extra money to not get ads. But I'm annoyed at them that they just made me have ads on the tier that I'm on. And then I was like, I should just cancel it. But then I'm like, well, if I cancel it, then I get free shipping from Amazon. And then I'd spend more money than I normally spend. So this is not actually the point of the episode, but that's just how I felt when I saw.

the chosen house of David Ron Amazon. So that's where you can find them if you want them and pay the extra money if you don't want the ads.

Tim Blagg (49:09.4)
That's it. We're live and ad free, right? On a, well, not live, but ad free, Bithgroup podcast.

Tom (49:13.465)
Yeah, but if anyone wants to put ads in, we'll take your money. I'll advertise anything. I have no standards. So just hit us up. Hello at youth group podcast.com. We'll advertise to my mom and my wife and the hosts who we are the ones who listen to the show. think actually my mom doesn't even listen.

Tim Blagg (49:18.03)
You

Tom (49:42.105)
It's just Emily. Hi, Emily.

Tim Blagg (49:44.078)
I've got a couple of leaders who I think listen. They'll listen out for their names to be called out. So shout out to physics leader, physicist leader, if you're listening in today.

Tom (49:54.455)
Hello, physicist leader.

yeah, think that, yeah. All right, let's, we don't need, we don't need to do a full list about our eight listeners. But if you are listening, send us an email and we'll give you a shout out. We'll have an episode of shout outs that'll go for a minute. All right. Is that, have you got, is that all you've got to share with this team? Okay, great. I think it's all I've got as well. So.

Tim Blagg (50:20.11)
That's all I've got.

Tom (50:26.691)
Good stuff, thanks everyone. We will stick all that stuff in the show notes and you can go and buy them or not. You can watch them or not. Do whatever you want. There's our recommendations. We're gonna be back next week with, I don't know if I mentioned it, with Mike McGarry. And then the week after that, I don't know what's happening. There might be a break. I haven't planned anything or we might be chatting about something.

I really want to chat about AI, which is one of the things that I suggested for the first episode, but Tim, you said you haven't thought about it that much in terms of youth ministry. I said, I shut you down.

Tim Blagg (51:06.838)
Yeah, yeah, it's fair. Well, I mean, I could ask chat GBT to give me a breakdown on the use of AI and youth ministry. See how that goes.

Tom (51:10.775)
You

Tom (51:14.271)
Yeah, that would work. So maybe in a few weeks. But if you actually are thinking a lot about youth ministry and AI and you want to send us your thoughts, then hello at youth group podcast dot com. Send us an email. I reckon that brings us to the end. I'm going to I'm going to press the button so that we can listen to the music and I can read the outro that we have now written for a time such as this. I've got it. Yep, there it is.

I don't want accidentally make the cheering happen again because that would be too long. All right. So thanks everyone for listening to the Youth Group podcast. If you have any questions or suggestions or other book recommendations that you think we should have, patents for sewing your own hats, send them to us. Hello at youthgrouppodcast.com. can find all my books, my other podcasts and out of date photos of myself at tomfrench.com.

Donnie, Tim does not have a youth group. He does have a group. He doesn't have a website yet. Tell him to get one and keep loving Jesus and loving young people. Bye.

Tim, you can say bye, you're allowed to say... Yeah.

Tim Blagg (52:23.346)
I am allowed to say bye. Okay. I kind of expect because I listen to this podcast so often that I'm just going to hear Chris's voice come over saying nailed it again. But yeah, bye everyone. He will say that.

Tom (52:31.501)
Well, he will say that he will. Yeah, I'm just going to to spend an entire podcast telling people to say bye until you're all trained. Bye.

Tim Blagg (52:41.518)
Bye everyone.